Pat Smith is an inspiring working jazz guitar player from Santa Clara, California. He shares his thoughts on Howard Roberts and Lenny Breau, the early days coming up, his thoughts on Bossa Nova, guitar luthiers and the frustration of trying to put a group together. A very cool and sometimes humorous insight into the life of a working jazz guitarist. A great read.

JazzGuitarLife.com Interview with Pat Smith: This interview was conducted via email May, 2004.

JGL: How old are you?

PS: 46

JGL: What geographical area do you live in?

PS: Santa Clara, CA

JGL: At what age did you first get into guitar playing and were you interested in jazz from the beginning or were there other musical interests before jazz? What was the motivating experience to get you involved in this particular music and instrument?

PS: As near as I can figure, I got my first guitar for Christmas in 1969. My first musical love was the Beatles, and I still love them. I got to see Paul McCartney a couple years ago and it was just a great show. I also loved AM radio back in the 60’s, I would fall asleep most nights with this AM headphone radio on my head. I listened to WLS and WCFL in Chicago going back and forth between them, I guess I was an early channel surfer. Anyway, that was bubblegum music like the Dave Clark 5,
Buckinghams, Gary Puckett and so forth. But around that time I went digging in my mother’s records and found HR is a Dirty Guitar Player by Howard Roberts. The way he played really was perfect for me because he had such a great melodic style and he was so funky. I think nice melodies have always been what I like best in music, I really don’t have a good ear for harmony. And of course I watched all the variety shows when I was a kid, I still miss those, there really is nothing like that anymore, nowhere for a good plate spinner to get work. So sometime after I started playing guitar I decided to see what else there was to hear and I was very lucky to stumble across a little record store that was owned by a really nice guy that happened to play jazz piano. He had two cats in the store named Monk and Bird. At the time I had no clue why he had given the such silly names. The first album I bought from him was called History of Eric Clapton, I had never heard of him. That record had his version of Hideaway on it which I really liked so I went back to the store and got Freddie King, BB King and got totally addicted to Blues. Those guys were so cool and it was music I could understand and play. From there I got into the Allman Brothers, Ten Years After, Skynyrd, Ted Nugent and all the guys that were playing epic long solos at that time. Who know that the days of long guitar solos were numbered? I could go on and on about that but I guess I should get back to Jazz talk...So somewhere in the early to mid 70’s I got Joe Pass’ Virtuoso 2, Pat Martino LIVE and Jim Hall Live, all three
of those are real mindblowers. I still love them all. Ok so to make a long story short, I spent the 70’s playing Rock, Folk, and also served my stint in the Disco army. In the 80’s I played Country mostly and also the Rock stuff of the time, always doing the bar band thing. I always wanted to try playing some Jazz and took some lessons here and there, seminars with Howard Roberts, Pat Martino, Joe Pass, lessons with the others you saw on my list. Oh, I should also mention that it was in high school I studied with Ken Bloom, he got me going on Travis picking and while he was teaching me Freight Train he mentioned that I should hear this guy named Lenny Breau play it. Well that’s another epic story, I wrote it out and you can read it on the Yahoo Lenny Breau club, its around post 40 or so. In 1981 I finally got to meet and study a bit with Lenny, he is my jazz guitar hero, him, Howard Roberts and Jim Hall. Yikes this is getting a bit long winded, sorry. The bottom line is that I was really afraid to try to be a jazz player. To me it really is kind of a sacred thing and I didn’t want to screw it up. Who was I to try to play the music of these great players? well, when I got to California in 1987 it was with the intent of getting better and trying to play some Jazz. I started a band called Io (as in the moon of Jupiter). It was really a terrific band, we did a bunch of original music and some ECM things and we couldn’t find much work. A guy that did jazz management heard us and said you guys are great...good luck, he wouldn’t touch us because we were too eclectic. After a year that band broke up and I went back to playing Blues. Then in 1987 I started having trouble with playing loud, I was getting bad migraines and getting really sick from the volume. I had to do something quiet. Russ St John was the drummer in my blues band and had similar jazz aspirations to mine, so we started the Penguin Jazz Quartet with Bassist Sumit Das and Pianist Bill Walker. My goal for that band was to learn to play standards. We did 2 CDs, one of which you can buy on Amazon. At the end of the PJQ I started playing with Brazilian singer Raquel Coelho and we started Nossa Bossa which was ultimately a 6 piece band that included Bill on Keys. That group just broke up a few weeks ago and now Bill and I are playing some acoustic duo stuff. What my next full time project will be...I don’t know yet.

JGL: What was your first guitar? What are you playing now?

PS: I had a bunch of junky guitars. The first good one I had was a ‘59 Telecaster...who knew what they’d be worth now, then it was just a used guitar. since then I have gone through zillions of them, I guess I am a guitar junkie. I currently have about fifteen of them. It’s like having a tool box with the right tools. For Nossa Bossa I used my Gibson Chet Atkins CEC, very playable guitar no feedback and a fair acoustic sound. For Jazz I have a few choices and depending on the mood and situation I have a wonderful “53 Tele with Barden pickups, a reissue Gibson 330, and my wideneck Tom Holmes Lenny Breau model solid body. The Holmes I got new in 1980. It was a wonderful thing to get a nice guitar made to order for $750, now Tom’s pickups are $280 each...times change. I love Tom and his pickups and guitars, he has real integrity in what he does and I respect him very much.

JGL: What kind, if any, formal training do you have (i.e.: lessons, schooling, that sort of thing). And how did these experiences help you get where you are today?

PS: I got a Bachelors in composition and I am still a really bad sight reader. I went to a few different colleges off and on over ten years and finally got the degree from Cornell College in Iowa.

JGL: Your bio on your soundclick page states that you have taken lessons or have attended seminars with some major players like Ken Bloom, David Bloom, Howard Roberts, Pat Martino, Joe Pass, Lenny Breau, Ron Eschete, Ted Greene, Joe Diorio, Jethro Burns, Guy Van Duser, and John Stowell.
Could you talk a bit about how you came to approach these individuals to take those lessons and was the experience at all what you expected?

PS: Well I already mentioned a bit about it, but I will say that all those guys are quite amazing and I will never be half the player that any of them are. Ron Eschete I approached at Kuumbwa in Santa Cruz when he was there with Gene Harris, Ron is just a wonderful nice guy and we hit it off great. His chord knowledge is just vast, you should hear him do the Johnny Smith close voiced chord solo thing...wow. He is like a orchestra in himself. Guy Van Duser, also a terrific guy, I studied with in the summer of 81. He helped me advance my fingerstyle technique. I went to LA a bunch of times to visit friends and realized it has a wealth of great players to study with. so, I also took a bunch of lessons with Ted Greene. I am in awe of him, you can ask him a question of pretty much any style of playing and he will show you something that will amaze you. I took two lessons with Joe Diorio, at the end of the second lesson he told me what I needed was to just get out and play. That was pretty amazing to me and I have been trying to do it. I should also say that John stowell is a really sweet guy and an encyclopedia of theory. Anybody reading this that wants my two cents on all these guys is go go go and take a lesson with them. Just being with these guys is a wonderful experience.

JGL: What was your practice routine like when you were beginning and what is it like now? Are there specific areas that you work on or do you just play through tunes?

PS: When I started I played all the time. I remember thinking if I could just play the intro to Johnny B Goode...well then I’d be pretty cool. I learned it and on the first gig I ever played we did it. The funny thing was that I knew nothing about keys and for some reason I had learned that intro in Eb but we played the song in A...my first tritone sub. I spent quite a bit of time playing scales with the metronome and I think that is very valuable. Now when I practice with the metronome I just improvise. I am trying to learn more about chords and subs, and I need to improve my use of melodic minor. I also need to learn more tunes, I have a bad memory for changes in jazz tunes so I almost always have the book there with me (gasp..). I know many players think it’s just horrible, but I would rather have it there so I can relax and play and not worry that I will space out a change.

JGL: Who were your influences on jazz guitar when you were beginning? And have they stayed the same or have they changed over the years? Who are you listening to today (guitarists or non-guitarists)?

PS: You know it’s different who you listen to and who really influences what and how you play. I really do listen to a pretty broad variety of stuff and to a certain extent everything you hear, read or do influences the person you are and how you make music. But the specific players that...well at least I can hear in my playing...well...Lenny Breau is certainly an influence. I guess some players affect you musically and some actually get in to the core of how you do things. so my deepest Jazz influences would be Lenny, Howard Roberts, Joe Pass just because I saw him play more times than I have seen anyone else. I guess John Abercrombie was a biggie, I loved the two records he did with Richie Bierach ...and I forget who else was on those, but I really loved the mood of those two Quartet ones he did. I also loved Sco’s live record which I think was Abercrombie’s quartet from those two I just mentioned. Of course Jim Hall and Pat Martino. Oh..and Wes, I went through a phase where Wes was all there was in the world and the funny thing was that I had no clue about jazz at all when I went through that phase...pretty funny. I think Howard Roberts had my favorite tone on guitar. I got to play his black guitar once, Wolf Marshall owns it now and he was kind enough to let me play it. He loves HR like I do and we even had that same HR record as our first jazz record...go figure. Ron Eschete also loves HR and can play a lot of those solos. HR fit me too because of the short tunes he did...like a pop tune 2-3 minutes tops. I still like to kind of say it and get out, I rarely play more than a couple chorus of solo on a tune, I guess I have a short attention span. I should also say that aside from jazz the other guys that were profound influences on me were Roy Buchanan, Dickey Betts, the Blues Kings BB Albert and Freddie, Motown stuff...did you see Standing in Shadows of Motown? It gets no better than those guys. Tower of Power, James Brown all greats. I also love Miles, Keith Jarrett, Count Basie, Anita O’Day, Chet Atkins and Grant Green.

JGL: When you were younger what was your band experiences like? Did you have friends who were involved in music as well or did you have to search for people to play with.

PS: Like most of us, when I was young getting in a band was so easy. There were places to play and people seemed to value live music more. Of course as you get older your friends and playing buddies grow up and get “real” jobs and those of us that just want to make music are left with fewer options. Most of the people I play with have day jobs. In fact several guys I play with are Ph.D. s. My wife is a lawyer and that’s the only reason I can do music full time and still live indoors. One thing that took a long time to dawn on me was to write music. I was quite content for years being a bar guitar guy. It is important to try to do some original things and some things people can connect to.

JGL: Did you know early on that music was something you wanted to do as a career choice and if so, what were some of the things you did to make this choice work for you?

PS: When I saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan I was 6, I wanted to be a Beatle. I always liked music and I never really thought about the “career” aspect much. I wish I had. I’m not sure I have made it work, but I have hopes. I’m not much of a business guy, I still get a thrill when someone wants me to play and I always seem to think of money as an afterthought, but I really am trying to do better with that. The biz aspect seems to really rob the fun part of music.

JGL: How difficult do you find it making a living as a jazz guitar
player? Or have you found it to be relatively easy?

PS: So far making a living playing jazz has not happened for me. I supported myself for quite a while teaching and playing the bar scene, but there just aren’t enough paying venues unless you go on the road. I would go if I could have a band to go with, but like I said I don’t have the full time guys that want to do it. It’s funny, most of the full time guys I know that I would love to play with are the no rehearsal mercenaries. They won’t commit to anything because they want to be free for some star to discover them. I look at it like a mom and pop grocery store, you work at it every day and build it brick by brick, but most players want to skip that and move in to a pre-built business.

JGL: Were your parent(s) and family members supportive of your musical career choice?

PS: My father was a jazz drummer. He and my mother divorced when I was a year and a half old, so I didn’t know him at all till we met when I was 35. It is quite a revelation to meet your dad at 35. My mother was supportive up to the point when I said I wanted to do this with my life, she cried her eyes out. Her father was a musician as was one of her brothers, so she knew what I was up against, but she never really explained it to me. Honestly if I had known how hard it is to do I would have kept it a hobby and learned to make a living.

JGL: How do you go about searching for gigs or do they come to you now that you are known? And what have you found in your experience that makes looking for gigs easier?

PS: I’m not known really. The Penguin CDs did ok and got a fair amount of airplay, but nobody knows my name. Looking for gigs is no fun. Being the arty kind of guy I am I don’t do well with rejection. I did all the booking of the Penguins, but I did almost none for Nossa Bossa. The ladies of the band did all the booking and did a great job, what bar owner wouldn’t want to talk to a pretty girl? Anyway, I will have to get back on the horse and start booking again now. Particularly as I am working on solo stuff too, then it’s just me...yikes.

JGL: Could you describe some of your best musical situations or experiences and the worst?

PS: LOL...well I think one of the worst was when I was playing a gig with a Blues band in which I was the youngest member and some drunk women yells out “how old are you guys anyway”. I am quite sure I will never be as old as I was at that moment. Then of course there are double bookings and smokey bars, thank goodness for the no smoking laws in CA. Best moments, I think getting to sit and play with Lenny Breau was amazing. Honestly any time I get to play it is a best moment, that’s why we keep on doing it.

JGL: What type of musical situation do you enjoy the most (i.e.: trio, quartet, duo, solo, etc.)

PS: I love to play in most any situation, but I do feel more comfortable with chords under me when I solo. I tend to be a single note soloist so sometimes things seem too empty to me without keyboards. Guitar duos can be really fun too. I also duo with a vibes player. And Bill (piano) and I always have a great time playing.

JGL: Do you like performing more as a sideman or as a leader? And if you could comment on the pros and cons of both.

PS: Well the up side of being a leader is that you get to play the melody and give direction to the band that is where you want to go. The downside is you do most or all of the work. As a sideman you are there for the sole perpose of making the front person sound as great as they can sound. Of course it is always your job in either situation to try to listen to your bandmates and make music. There really is no time for big egos on the bandstand. I almost never enjoy hearing pickup bans because it is every man for himself. To me the great moments are those moments of seemingly ESP like interplay that you get with guys that know each other and play together a lot. When you hear the Jarrett trio it is magical.

JGL: What type of guitar/amp sound do you prefer, or does it change from one situation to the next?

PS: Yes it depends on the situation. But if I had to just play one guitar it would be a Tele. I have a couple of Carr amps, a Mercury 8 watter and a Rambler (28 watts). I have gone through so many amps it’s crazy, but I am completely happy with the Carrs. So, for piano duo I use the 330 and the Mercury or I also have a little AER Compact 60. For Organ trio I usually play my Tele and the Rambler. For acoustic guitar I use the AER line out in to my Bose Personal Amplification System. Nossa Bossa was one of the bands that got to debut the new Bose system and I really love that, they made a miracle.

JGL: On the Nossa Bossa website there is a mention that you are, or may be working on a solo CD. Is this in the works? And if so, can you comment on how it's coming along and the process involved in getting there?

PS: I did a sort of a demo last fall to prove to myself that it was passable. I am still not quite convinced but several of my friends seem to like it. I will keep at it and I hope to actually do it for real this year. Playing solo always seemed so lonely to me. But I am getting used to the idea of a single line all by itself. I also have been working on duets with myself. It is quite an interesting thing to try as I don’t use a click...it wouldn’t seem like Jazz. so I just play and I solo the comp or play a bass line then I go back and do the opposite on the next
track. The ones you can hear on my Soundclick site are all one take no edits mistakes and all. It is the musical equivalent of a Japanese brush painting, one shot and you are done.

JGL: How did the Nossa Bossa group come about and how different is it playing that style of music compared to your jazz styling? Is it a totally different mind-set or does each style complement each other? I realize that Stan Getz had no problem blending both styles together but I wonder if it isn't a different story for guitar players.

PS: Brazilian music and Latin music in general seem to me to be about straight time. I most often found myself playing a stream of 16ths for solos because that seemed to be what the music wanted. On Bossas you are a bit more free to express different things but as the tempo goes up you just want to drive the thing. For jazz stuff you get to play those nice swing 8ths. I love that feel. also many of the Brazilian songs have very
specific color tones that need to be there, with jazz it seems a bit more open to interpretation.

JGL: Apart from the Nossa Bossa group, you play in a number of varied stylistic playing situations, like an organ trio and a new world music project, not to mention, your acoustic playing and overdubbed duets with yourself. How do you handle wearing so many hats and are their any other styles up your sleeve that need to come out?

PS: In all the years I have played I have run through lots of different styles. I love chicken picken country. Johnny Cash, Emmy Lou Harris, Jimmy Bryant, Chet, Merle Haggard, Waylon and Willie, I love that stuff. I like Paul Winter and Oregon. I love Motown and funk. I still love all that bubblegum stuff I grew up with. I love Sinatra, Ella, Louis Armstrong. Man, Sinatra at the Sands with Count Basie doing I’ve Got You
Under My Skin is just the best thing in the world. I took two years of Sitar, Indian music. Simon and Garfunkel, John Prine, Dylan, Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, Robert Johnson, Django, John McLaughlin, Jimmy Smith, Ali Akbar Khan, Egberto Gismonti, ... what a great world we live in that you can have all that.

JGL: You have at least two guitars that have been made for you. One by Linda Manzer and one by Tom holmes. Would you comment on these guitars and what sets them apart from other guitars out there, if anything?

PS: We are blessed to live in the golden age of luthiery. There are so many people building fantastic instruments. I had a go at building and was quite active in the guitar making community for a bit and I got to know many builders. So it is quite natural to me to play handmades.It is a very special thing to know the person that built your guitar, to me it just makes it better. So I own several. I have a cutaway steelstring made by Linda Manzer. The guitar is great, and Linda is such a wonderful sweet person and one of the great builders of this or anytime. I have four Tom Holmes solid bodies and I use his pickups whenever I use humbuckers, well mostly, they are getting a bit pricey now. I have the first Mapson Jazz Standard which Jim and I designed together, very nice and beautiful guitar with maybe the best neck I have ever played on it.
I also have a great classical built by Abe Wechter, he apprenticed with Master Richard Schneider. Abe was the best and I was probably the worst of Richard’s students. And I am waiting for a Ribbecke Testadura which is his 335 style guitar. Tom is one of my best friends and it will be incredible to have one of his guitars. He is absolutely one of the best builders ever. By the way, this week I have the soon to be famous Ribbecke/Manzer archtop visiting my house so I can play some tunes on it for Tom and Linda’s upcoming how to build and archtop DVD. It will be a great asset to anyone interested in how archtops are made. You can see pics of that guitar of Tom’s website at Ribbecke.com.

JGL: You mentioned in your Soundclick bio that you had/have suffered from a loss of hearing and bad headaches due to playing loud blues and fusion music. Has this been corrected, or do you still suffer from such a condition? And how have you attempted to work through this while still playing all the time? Is there anything that you would have done differently to not have had to deal with such a condition?

PS: Since I play quietly now I have no troubles. I am also on bloodpresure meds and have not had a migraine for years.

JGL: You have a live365 radio station called Pat's Guitar Jazz which jazzguitarlife.com has a link to (great listening by the way). What was the impetus for that station and how has the Internet worked for you as a jazz guitar player, and individual in general?

PS: The internet is a great gateway to the world for music in general and for each of us in particular. I started doing the Live 365 station just for fun. As I have a pretty huge CD collection, it seemed like it would be nice to share it and inflict my tastes on the world. But it really has become much more than that now. I have come in contact with many players wanting to have their music played and I am happy to do that. The jazz guitar world is so small but so devoted. all you have to do is read Just Jazz Guitar and see the same faces issue after issue to know how small the community is. It is so nice of you to have this website featuring those of us that are not well known, and that’s what I am trying to do with Pat’s Guitar Jazz. so there are all the big name guys you know and love plus a bunch of guys you may not know but will probably dig.

JGL: Have you ever had second thoughts about your choice to have music as a career and if so, what other career path do you think you would have followed had you not been a guitar player.

PS: I have those thoughts every day. I actually did try to finish my college degree in psychology, but I couldn’t get the courses, so I ended up in composition and it was great and interesting, but it would be nice to make a living.

JGL: Where would you like to see jazz guitar go in the coming years?

PS: I would just like to see Jazz keep it’s little place in the world. I don’t have much hope that it will be the next big thing.

JGL: Any advice for the younger guy or gal who is thinking about playing jazz guitar?

PS: Yes, unless you really are God’s gift to the instrument learn a back up skill so when you get to be 40 you can do something else if you want to. If you aren’t God’s gift to the guitar then practice practice practice. And most of all, if you want to play jazz you MUST listen to all that has come before you. Jazz is a tradition, and there have been giants. It is so important to know what they did feel-wise.

JGL: Thank you Pat for participating in jazzguitarlife.com. It is most appreciated.

PS: Thank you so much for your interest and your support of me and all us pickerheads.